John Paulk
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[Ed. note: This interview was conducted in June, 2000 -- three months before Mr. Paulk was caught at a gay bar
in Washington, D.C., thus casting doubt on the credibility of his "conversion."]
PlanetOut: Before you became well-known in the ex-gay movement, you were publicly out for many years. Can you
describe your experiences?
John Paulk: When I was 18, some friends took me to a gay bar. I felt very comfortable; I fit in. You can imagine an
18-year-old in a gay bar.
Everyone was all over me. And I thought it was wonderful. Homosexuality was more hidden then than it is now, which added to
the excitement of
the whole thing. You know, bars didn't have signs over the doors. Progressively I started to come out and accept it more. As
the years passed, I
began telling my family. I found a lot of acceptance. I did not grow up in any kind of religious household. Along with my family, I
just came to the
conclusion that gay people are born that way. I couldn't identify why I felt this way. It wasn't really a problem for me. My first
sexual encounter
was with a college freshman I met while I was in high school. We developed a relationship when I went to college. We became
roommates,
and that relationship lasted for a little more than a year. We broke up because he was a sexual addict, and I couldn't handle
that. That was very
devastating to me. I fell into the scene of partying and going to discos and picking people up, going home with them. As time
went by, I had
some long-term relationships, some short, some 20-minute -- kind of the whole gamut. I developed a very good network of
friends, got involved
in the Columbus AIDS Task Force, and I went to the Metropolitan Community Church [a gay-friendly church] because it was
close to school. I
marched in gay pride parades ...
PlanetOut: This story doesn't conform to what people would expect from someone who decided to try to change his
sexuality: You're not from a
religious background, and you didn't have a miserable "coming out" experience.
JP: My story is a little different from most. Most ex-gays grew up in Christian families. They felt homosexuality was
wrong their whole life. Their
family never accepted it, and so for them it was different. For me, it wasn't a big deal. I mean, I knew my parents probably
weren't thrilled that I
was gay, but I really appreciated their response. They didn't shun me, they didn't cast me away, and I could bring my gay
friends over. I became
a well-known female impersonator, and my parents knew that. I could bring my drag friends over. They were very
understanding.
PlanetOut: So what made you decide that you wanted to change?
JP: As the years went by I became progressively disillusioned with my life. I came from an alcoholic family, and I
became a very heavy drinker. I
decided to go to gay AA. That really transformed my life in many ways. I made a good group of gay friends who were all sober.
I was about 23.
Nonetheless, I was very disillusioned with homosexuality, with gay relationships. I stopped going to nightclubs, but I felt
disillusioned with what I
saw as the fickleness of gay men. They took from you, they wanted sex. They'd be with you -- and either they wouldn't be
faithful, or I wouldn't
be faithful. That was my experience. About that time, I was going to Ohio State University. I met a couple of Christians who
were really different
from the Christians that I had encountered when I marched in gay pride parades. I thought they were very in-your-face, very
rejecting.
But these two Christians befriended me, and over about a six-month period of time, we became very good friends. They began
to delve into
what the Bible was all about. They were not hard-hitting. They never even brought up homosexuality at all. And I came to really
trust these
people. I saw that the love they had developed for me was so much more genuine than any love I'd experienced in my life --
from my parents or
anybody. And I really was very empty on the inside, even though I had a very full life.
PlanetOut: Was there a moment of crisis or revelation when you said, "I really need to change my life"?
JP: It evolved over time. What I did do is I became a Christian -- I accepted Jesus Christ into my life. But when I did
that, it wasn't like I had this
big revelation that something was wrong. ... Well, as I was talking to these individuals, as I was reading through the Bible, I
came to discover that
according to the Bible and my understanding, there was something wrong with homosexuality. I became solidly convinced that
homosexuality
was not something that God ever intended or created for me. I went to the MCC church and sat down and talked to one of the
elders there and
said, look, I've recently become a Christian and I'm reading in the scriptures that homosexual behavior is condemned. Can you
clear this up for
me? The elder at the MCC tried to convince me that the scriptures defended homosexuality. The more he talked to me, the
more I became
convinced that the Bible did not defend homosexual behavior. I remember saying to him that if God truly made us this
way, there would
be some positive provision for homosexuality in the Bible. But every time sexuality was talked about it was only mentioned
positively relating to a
man and a woman within marriage. Every other way it was condemned -- whether that be through heterosexual promiscuity or
adultery, it was
always condemned. And homosexuality was never talked about affirmatively. I made up my mind at the time that I truly wanted
to get out of
homosexuality. I was not too happy in it at this point anyway.
PlanetOut: If it was the "lifestyle" that made you miserable, why didn't you just give it up -- stop partying, stop drinking
...
JP: Well, I wasn't really in the lifestyle anymore. I mean, what's a gay lifestyle anyway? But when you talk about the
classic gay lifestyle, what we
understand that to be is you go to gay bars, you frequent gay hangouts. I wasn't really involved in that anymore -- although I
had good gay
friends. It was the homosexuality itself -- I just felt miserable. I was sick of the whole thing; I was sick of men.
PlanetOut: Did you ask yourself where your misery about your sexuality came from? Couldn't it have resulted from
people having told you that
homosexuality is wrong, not just from the homosexuality itself?
JP: Well, that's a good question. But I'd been in gay-affirmative therapy since I was 19. And that had nothing to do
with homosexuality. So I
was going to one of the most prominent gay therapists in Columbus from 19 to about 23. It's funny -- as I was writing my first
book, I called him
and asked him if he would send me the notes from our four years of sessions so I could reconstruct what I went through. And
even in his notes
it said, "No coming out problem whatsoever." And there was no struggle. For me, there was not the conflict of what was right
and what was
wrong until I accepted Christ -- and that was the dividing line. The Bible put a standard in front of me that said there are things
that are right and
there are things that are wrong. Homosexuality was just one of those things that I believe to be wrong. Let's face it -- there are
a whole lot
worse things than homosexual behavior. The Bible mentions many other things that people should not engage in. So that was
just part of it.
PlanetOut: How does one go about changing one's sexuality? What did you actually do?
JP: I was in a Christian bookstore one day in 1987, and I found a book that talked about Exodus in the back. And I
thought there's got to be
more people like me; I can't be the only person who has had this experience. So I contacted Exodus. They started sending me
material, and I
thought, "I'm not alone; this is all over the world." I left Columbus. I moved to California, and I joined a program called "Love in
Action." This was
in 1988. That's when I started coming out of homosexuality. It was a program that believed that homosexuality had identifiable
roots. You
weren't born this way.
PlanetOut: So what are some of those factors?
JP: Some of them are the stereotypes that you've heard for years. Overwhelmingly we had very poor relationships with
our dads. We felt very
alienated from our fathers, to a severe extent -- not just a light brushoff. We never felt like we belonged, like we fit in with other
boys. We were
picked on. I was called "fag" from the earliest time I can remember -- even before I knew what being a "fag" was. We had
overly-bonded, very
symbiotic relationships with our moms. We felt closer to girls -- all the stereotypes. That was me. So the way we came out of
homosexuality was
recognizing all those things and going back and repairing a lot of the damage. I did a lot of work with my family, a lot of
counseling with my dad.
A lot of forgiveness was extended both ways, along with the goal of becoming heterosexual -- not as a goal, but as a
byproduct. I did not go to
Love in Action to get married. It's hard for some people to understand this. There are two separate things: To stop being
homosexual is one thing;
to become heterosexual is something completely different. And that really was not in my mindset at the time. I couldn't even
fathom the idea of
being married to a woman. The thought of being intimate with a woman made me sick.
PlanetOut: So did going through your childhood and repairing what you call the "damage" actually affect your
feelings towards men?
JP: It did. It really did. And I'll tell you some examples. What I learned that had a lot to do with my homosexuality was a
sense of inadequacy
with being a man. Here I was -- 25 or 26 years-old -- and I couldn't even call myself a man. The word "man" represented my
dad. It represented
someone on TV. It was Tom Selleck. It was some archetype of this Greek God. I didn't feel like a man; I felt very inadequate.
So if I could have
sex with a man or a relationship with a man, I could kind of glean his masculinity. And that he was somehow better than me --
more of a man
than me. Which is ridiculous, because what makes a man? The fact that you're male. That's all a man is. But I didn't fell like a
man. So that was
part of what was changing -- this enormous envy of other men.
As I was getting to know heterosexual men and became a part of their world, I began to realize I wasn't any different from
them. Why had I
been afraid of these guys all my life? It's because the guy who was a role model -- my dad -- always rejected me. So as I felt
more and more
comfortable being a man and being with straight men, my sexual attraction to men gradually -- almost imperceptibly -- began to
diminish. This
was over four years.
I also had to realize that my mom had done a lot of damage, too; she was like an emotional vampire. My whole
world revolved around my mom, and I had a love-hate relationship with her. It's like she emotionally suffocated me all my life,
and I think that
had a lot to do with why I resented women so much. Women to me were either goddesses or whores. And there was no
in-between. As I went
through and realized that all women weren't like this, I corrected my perception of women. But this all happened over a long
period of time; it's
not like an epiphany I came to. I felt more connected to straight men. Men did not hold this incredible fascination for me
anymore, and I began
being fascinated with women. It wasn't in a sexual way; it was just, "Wow, I've always felt that I was like women all my life, and
I'm really not."
PlanetOut: Now that you're a number of years out from this, do you ever get an inkling of attraction to other men, or
has that disappeared altogether?
JP: I think it would be ludicrous to say that I would never find a man attractive. I mean, it will never be as though I was
never gay. Let's be
honest. I had over 100 sexual encounters with men and was attracted to them as an adolescent. I've been out of
homosexuality for 14 years -- twice as long as I was ever even involved in it. Now, if I feel myself being pulled towards a man, I
realize there is something going on. I may be
feeling bad about myself. But homosexuality holds nothing for me. It didn't make me happy. You know, I'm not dead. I can look
at a man and
say, "Wow, he's really attractive." But when I'm doing that I'm envying him. I may want to look like him; I may want his attributes.
When I realize
that's what's going on, there's no attraction. I become his friend and that's the end of it.
I've been married eight years. What I have with my wife is so solid. We're best friends, and I love her so much. I have two
sons now. I have a solid family, and I wouldn't give that up for anything. That's what brings me the joy that I have.
PlanetOut: Are you accepted by straight society now -- or are you "tainted" by having been gay?
JP: The average person may not know who I am. He or she may think I sound gay, but someone's voice has very little
to do with who they truly
are. What I do find is that the more comfortable I am with who I am, the more I'm accepted. And my mission in life is to go into
churches across the
country and make Christians comfortable with this. I say, look, the church has done a terrible job of dealing with homosexuality.
Sometimes it's
the church's rejection that has pushed someone into homosexuality. Rejection is core to homosexuality. The more comfortable
we are with it,
the more comfortable it makes Christians with it. I try to let them know they don't have to compromise their religious values.
What I want to help
them do is understand who these people are, and to understand that they're not pariahs, that they are no different from
anyone else. If the
Bible says we're all sinners, that means all of us. And there is no degree of sin; we are all the same before the eyes of
God. They've
got to understand that these people are just people who have a problem in their eyes. So that's what I do.
PlanetOut: Can you talk about your family life now? You're married and have two kids ...
JP: I met my wife -- she was coming out of lesbianism. A lot of people think that if you come out of homosexuality, you
will marry someone who
has come out of homosexuality. In actuality, that is really rare. We think there are only 5 or 10 couples in the whole country like
us. The majority of
ex-gays who get married marry someone who's always been heterosexual. So my wife just happened to be the woman I fell in
love with, and
she just happened to come out of lesbianism. Homosexuality does not play a part in our marriage except that we are very
visible national
spokespeople. But as soon as the door closes and we're alone in our home, we're just a normal married couple. We are raising
our boys,
we go to church on Sunday, we have picnics on Saturday, we go to the water park. It's living a life just like anybody else.
PlanetOut: I apologize if this is too personal -- Are you both sexually attracted to one another?
JP: I would say so. I mean, we did conceive two children, and we didn't do it with a turkey baster. I would never have
married my wife if I didn't
feel sexually drawn to her. It was actually very fascinating how that happened. I had never felt sexual attraction towards a
woman. As I got to
know her and we became friends, I developed this security in my relationship with her. The sexual attraction was there -- and it
surprised me as
much as it surprised anybody.
PlanetOut: What do you tell your kids about your lives as gay and lesbian people?
JP: We've written two books. We've been on the cover of Newsweek. We've been on every television program
in existence. Even to this
day, when we're in the national spotlight, our children are a part of it. This is a miracle in our lives, and they're just a part of this
package. They
will grow up knowing about this. We have gay friends. We have ex-gay friends who are a part of our lives, and it will seem very
normal to them.
PlanetOut: How would you react if one of your sons turned out to be gay?
JP: I'm always asked that question. Let's put it this way: I don't believe one of my sons would ever turn out to be gay
because of what I believe
to be the nature of homosexuality. If my wife and I -- especially me -- give emotional nurturing to our sons (which I do
continuously), if I identify
with them to the extent that I'm able, if they know that their sense of masculinity is safe and secure, if they grow up knowing
that their father is
always in their corner for them -- those are internal things that I think will prevent them from having homosexual feelings.
However, what I cannot
control is things that happen on the outside. I can't control what people say to them that would damage them. I cannot control
whether they are
sexually abused. Sexual abuse can take a devastating toll on a little boy or girl's identity. This is what I preach to men and
women in the church:
Regardless of who your children are, they're your children. You may not like things they do. But you have to love them,
be there for
them. It would not change my love for them one iota. I may not like it, but it will not change my love or attentiveness to them.
PlanetOut: What's your position on gay rights?
JP: As I've increasingly been involved in this, I am involved in the Christian movement, the pro-family movement. I do
not believe that the civil
rights that gays are seeking are applicable. I believe that the gay movement has piggybacked onto the civil rights movement,
and part of the
civil rights is based on a foundation of immutable characteristics. I don't believe that homosexuality fits into that category.
PlanetOut: How would you characterize your attitude toward gay and lesbian people now? Do you feel sorry for them?
JP: I don't feel sorry for them. I respect them as people. I respect their right to live their lives the way they want to. My
ultimate goal is that I
would like to see everybody come to a relationship with Jesus Christ. As a Christian, that's my overwhelming desire for
everybody. I don't
separate gay people from straight people. I have seen thousands of people find a deep joy in their lives that
they never had when they were involved in homosexuality. But I don't look at them with disdain or disgust. How could I? I'm in a
very unique
position -- as are all ex-gays -- having been on both sides of the coin. So my biggest overriding principle in life is trying to get
other Christians to
understand who gay people are.
I've been dismayed at how the gay rights movement has portrayed us as pawns of the Religious Right. They seem to have little
respect for our
struggle. They think we're so stupid that we could be used by the Christian Right. Well maybe we're using the Christian
Right to get our
message out. The gay community may not understand ex-gays. They may think we're internally homophobic. But we have had
legitimate
experiences -- in the same way gay people have.
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