Bob Davies
PlanetOut: From your Web site, it looks like the main function of Exodus is to refer people to agencies that offer
therapy for homosexuality. How
many people have you referred in the last 25 years?
Bob Davies: We have been contacted by an estimated 250,000 individuals. That's not only people who are struggling
with homosexual issues,
but it's also family members, friends, pastors, anybody. And that is not just the people who have contacted our headquarters
office directly, but an estimate of how many people have contacted all of our agencies, including the headquarters office. We
have 105 ministries around
North America, and we're also linked with similar coalitions overseas. As you know, the next question is how many people have
actually had a
successful recovery. There are a lot of figures flying around. But the bottom line is that no one really knows for sure. All we
know is that there
are many thousands of people who say -- and this is anecdotal evidence -- that they have experienced great changes in
coming away from
homosexuality.
PlanetOut: How do you define success? What are you trying to do with people's same-sex attractions and same-sex
relationships?
BD: That's an excellent question because each of us defines success in a little different way. First, let me give you a
little bit of background. We
are coming at this from a Christian perspective. The vast majority of people who come to Exodus are men and women who are
of an
evangelical Christian faith, and that is the bottom line. They are basically in a conflict between their religious beliefs and their
homosexual
feelings. The bottom line is that God says no to this behavior, so we've gotta figure out what we're going to do about that.
We've got three
options. One of the options is to say, "I don't care what the Bible says; I'm going to ignore it. I'm going to go out and explore
this part of who I
am." Another option is to try to incorporate both elements into one belief system. And that's basically the pro–gay church
movement. They've
had to make some modifications in terms of their religious beliefs, but they try to hold onto as much of their Christianity as they
can.
Option number three -- and these are the people who are coming to Exodus -- are the people who don't want to change their
religious beliefs,
and therefore believe that homosexual behavior will never be an option in their lives. They then have to figure out where to go
from there
because they do have same-sex attractions, but they don't want to act on them. They have to either live with these feelings for
the rest of their
lives or see if perhaps these feelings can be changed.
PlanetOut: So is the goal to change the behavior or to change the underlying feelings that lead one to have a
homosexual relationship?
BD: Ultimately the recovery process has different stages to it, and the first stage is the change in the behavior. We
believe that is the first thing
people are motivated by. They are usually involved in homosexual behavior and don't want to be. They believe it is
contradicting their moral
beliefs. So they are first of all seeking to come out of homosexual behavior. The second step, which is the more difficult step, is
to seek to
resolve the feelings themselves. Our perspective is that homosexuality is not primarily inborn. We believe that it is due to family
and other
environmental factors that give rise to these feelings, so we believe that it's just a surface symptom of deeper issues that need
to be resolved in
a person's life. That's where all the counseling and therapy comes in. They seek to resolve whatever is prompting those
feelings so that
ultimately those feelings will change.
PlanetOut: What's involved in the therapy for the underlying desires? How do you approach the issue of changing
how someone feels toward people
of the same sex?
BD: We're faith-based, so there's a mixture of psychological insights and there's also a strong religious element to it --
Bible study, prayer, group
confession, encouraging one another. ... All of these things are elements of the process. Each ministry has a slightly different
approach. A lot of
the ministries are led by men and women who have themselves left homosexuality. Their main credential is that they were once
involved in what
they saw as an undesirable behavior; they no longer are; and they want to reach out and give support to others who are
seeking that same
change. Another model is church-based groups led by a minister or pastor who cares about this issue. The final model is
ministries led
by a psychiatrist, psychologist, or somebody else with professional credentials. They have more like a private counseling
practice. The vast
majority offer a support group, maybe on Friday nights, where people get together and talk about how they're doing. They'll
maybe do a Bible study,
or some teaching on what we understand to be some of the root issues and causes of homosexuality. They will pray for one
another. A lot of
ministries also offer one-on-one counseling.
PlanetOut: Let me read you a quote from an article that appeared in Salon a couple weeks ago: "Almost every
ex-gay I've interviewed has
copped to having some same-sex attractions. And a few admit to having no heterosexual feelings whatsoever. In other words,
even though
they may have changed many things, they have not changed that single fact of their own desire." What's your reaction to that
assessment of
ex-gays?
BD: My reaction is that we are a recovery ministry and we are very clear in stating that this is a process -- it's an
ongoing, difficult process. And we don't pretend to claim that people arrive at a finishing point of perfection in terms of this
change process. There's a balance
here. I know a lot of people who have come through Exodus who say they've experienced some definite, long-term changes
they can see every
day, and they're really glad for those changes. But that does not mean that they have arrived at a point of 100%
heterosexuality.
PlanetOut: A lot of gay people will hear what you're saying and interpret it as meaning that most people who are
ex-gay are really ex-gay in behavior
only. In other words, they're repressing their still-existing homosexual desires. And that sounds like a pretty unhappy way to
live.
BD: A very miserable way to live, yes. I would say to that that my challenge is for people who are skeptical to really
study the stories and
testimonials and also get to know individuals. If they are interested in this type of change, I encourage them to get to know
some of the leaders
in Exodus who claim to have changed, and really analyze where they're at right now. I think people would really be surprised by
some of the
changes that have occurred. These people, for example, would say that 20 years ago they had no inkling of heterosexuality,
they never
thought they'd be married. And today they say they still remember homosexuality, or occasionally may have a thought or inkling
or temptation.
But they're married, have two kids, are happy, fulfilled. They enjoy all aspects of their marriage -- including the sexual part. That
kind of story to
me is a story of pretty dramatic change, even if the change is not 100% complete yet.
PlanetOut: Some of the stories that I've read about people who have gone through Exodus or similar programs talk a
lot about how when they were
engaging in homosexual "behavior," they were also doing drugs, drinking a lot, having anonymous, meaningless sex, etc. And
now that they've
gone through Exodus they have a lot more stability in their lives and therefore they feel more satisfied and fulfilled. A lot of
people look at that
and say, "Well, the root of the problem was not that they were gay, but that society told them that being gay was wrong, and
therefore they
engaged in all these destructive behaviors." If what they wanted was a white picket fence, a dog, and a stable relationship,
couldn't they just as
easily do that with a same-sex relationship as with an opposite sex one?
BD: One of the issues is their whole religious belief system. Let's focus on that for a minute. A lot of these people
have embraced a
conservative Christian world view, and then later when they go out and involve themselves in homosexuality, they are
automatically in a deep,
gut-wrenching conflict. It's not necessarily society that's telling them that homosexuality is wrong, but it's the church, or their
Christian friends, or
their perception of what God and the Bible have to say about this. We are coming at it through our Christian faith, and when
you lose sight of
that, the whole thing is just puzzling to people.
PlanetOut: What's your take on the APA's cancellation of the panel discussion on homosexual therapy?
BD: I haven't talked to the individuals who withdrew, so I'm in some ways an outsider. Without going into second
guessing their motivations, my
main challenge to the APA is that I think the debate is necessary. And a public, honest discussion of this whole topic would
benefit everybody. I
don't see that there's anything to be gained by trying to silence our view. Ultimately, truth is truth, and if these ministries are just
a sham, then
let's talk about it, let's expose them, and let's watch Exodus collapse. But I don't think that we're going to get anywhere by not
talking about it
and not acknowledging that these people even exist. If people are changing from homosexuality, then that needs to be
acknowledged, and
therapy needs to be available for those who want it. We realize that the vast majority of men and women in the gay and lesbian
community are
not interested in Exodus; they want to stay as far away from us as possible. But we have the right to exist for the minority of
people who do
want to avail themselves of our services.
PlanetOut: Most gay activists have a vision of the future where sexuality just isn't an issue for people -- where anyone
who's gay is happy and open
about it, and anyone who's straight is happy and open about it. It just sort of disappears as an issue. In the ex-gay movement,
is there a similar
view of the future where everyone who has gay feelings goes into therapy and gets rid of them? Or do you imagine you'll
always be a minority?
BD: We will always be a minority. We realize that most people do not want to change their homosexuality. Indeed, as
our culture continues to
move along, we see that cultural attitudes are changing, and there is less of a stigma today for people who want to pursue
homosexuality. But
coming at it from a Christian perspective, the question of whether society accepts it or not is not the main question. The deeper
question is how
I view this through the belief system I've adopted as a Christian. Ultimately, we go back to a higher authority, and that's the
Bible.
PlanetOut: If God really does fundamentally disapprove of homosexuality, why are there so many gay people around?
BD: That gets back to a discussion to what factors in our lives give rise to homosexual feelings in the first place? Let
me give you a couple of
examples. We see a whole lot of patterns here. A huge majority of the women coming to us have either been sexually abused
or deeply
wounded by men in their early lives. That's a fact; we can back that up. But whether that represents the lesbian community at
large is a
question that we have never attempted to answer. We assume that it's probably true, but we don't know it. A lot of women who
are lesbians
would say that even though it's true of them, it doesn't have anything to do with their lesbianism. We would say, "Let's hold on
here ... Maybe
the fact that nine out of ten of the women in the group have been sexually abused means we need to look at that and see
whether that has
had an impact on the way that you've viewed men, on the way that you relate to men or don't relate to men." We've come to
the firm conclusion
that early life experiences, traumas, can have a dramatic impact on how we experience ourselves and identify ourselves
sexually as
adults.
PlanetOut: As you well know, we could point to thousands of exceptions -- women who were sexually abused and
remain straight, and women who are
lesbians who were not sexually abused. So surely it must be more complicated than that.
BD: Well, it's more complicated than just one factor. But I'm just pulling out one thread of the tapestry to say that this is
the kind of thing we do a
lot of talking about here. Because we believe that the more of these background factors that exist in a young woman's life, the
more likely she
will grow up to identify herself as a lesbian. We know there are many exceptions, there are other factors, and we know that
people react
differently to emotional and physical trauma. But all I can say is that there are common patterns that we have seen over and
over. And for
people who have changed, as they began to delve into these issues and resolve the emotional hurt, then they have seen
some pretty
interesting changes in their lives, including their sexual desires. Most of us in Exodus do not claim to be scientists; we do not
have degrees in
genetic science. So it would be very foolish for us to say we have all the answers and we know for sure that there's no inborn
contribution to
homosexuality. I never say that. But there could be a conclusive study published tomorrow that would prove me wrong. What
would that do to
Exodus? People may be surprised, but it would actually have very little impact. We would still carry forward anyway because
we're not basing
our moral choices on the causation theories of homosexuality. Whatever causes homosexuality is not the biggest question that
we wrestle with
here.
PlanetOut: Although if it were shown that it was primarily caused by inborn factors, then wouldn't that mean that you're
really only able to focus on
changing behavior, not underlying orientation?
BD: We honestly would have to examine that study and the evidence and implications. I'm realizing that I haven't
totally thoroughly thought
through the implications. The main point I'm trying to make is that our view of acceptance or non-acceptance is Biblically
based.
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