The Cloris Leachman Interview

 (By Jenny Stewart, PlanetOut Editorial Director)

While young celebrities are often eager to spill their dirty laundry in sordid bios, actors of Cloris Leachman's generation have tended to stuff their secrets in locked and closely-guarded hampers that'll travel well with them into eternity.   But in her new book, "Cloris: My Autobiography," Leachman reveals so much that you almost have to read it twice to let all the juicy stuff sink in. 

What makes Leachman's book even more interesting is that she reveals things that have never even been rumored, much less written about.  (Side note:  Leachman wrote the book with Hollywood impresario George Englund, her on-again/off- again husband of many years.  The couple had five children together, one of whom passed away in the 1980's.  Though now unmarried, the two remain extremely close.)

In "Cloris," Leachman outlines the evolution of her life from a simple, wide-eyed Midwestern girl to that of one of the most acclaimed, versatile and cherished actresses of her generation.  She includes as much detailed introspection on her personal life – regardless of whether the memories are good or bad.  In one especially painful excerpt, Leachman recounts one particularly painful night where her father beats her for no apparent reason.  It took place in the family bathroom when she was 17, naked and just about to bathe.

Then there are the Hollywood years. For instance, she describes a one night stand with Gene Hackman in 1970's San Francisco -- so animalistic that they practically tore each other apart. 

There's also the story about the night that she was up against an even more ferocious beast, when a drunken Joan Collins called her at 4a.m. and matter-of-factly told Leachman that not only had she just had sex with Englund, but also that they were in love.  Shocking yes, but the even better part is how Leachman kept in the almost more interesting detail about how Collins then threw down the phone and started throwing up as a result of the alcohol.  You gotta love that she kept that part in…

Crooner Andy Williams had such a crush on her that he could barely contain himself in her presence, and thanks to Englund's lifelong friendship with Marlon Brando, the book is filled with fascinating details of the famously private actor's personal life.   According to Leachman, Brando's affection for Englund ran so deep he practically had a man-crush.  "George, if you had a cunt, I'd marry you," Brando is recounted in the book as saying.

These details -- as well as memories of Leachman's iconic, hilarious roles as Frau Blucher in "Young Frankenstein," Nurse Diesel in "High Anxiety," and Phyllis Lindstrom -- ran through my mind as I sat in a booth of a popular Thai restaurant in L.A. awaiting her arrival for our interview. 

As Leachman settled into the booth alongside her son, George Englund Jr. (who looks like a cross between Simon Cowell and George Clooney) and pored over the menu for 20 minutes, I was struck by the youthful energy of the 83-year-old actress.  How could anyone be that enthusiastic and excited over a Thai menu?

Leachman was now ready to order, but allowed me to go first.   Not wanting to waste time, I just blurted out, "I'll have the 65 and I don't care how it comes."

"If you don't care how it comes, you should get the 69!" said Leachman, laughing. "The 69 would be nice and spicy!" 

Talk then turned to her recent appearance on "The Howard Stern Show," where she described actress Joanne Woodward as "boring" not once, but twice. I wondered if she'd talked to Woodward since then.

"Well, no because we don't talk at all," she said.  "I can't stand her. I wish I knew [why], you know?  Because it bothers me that I can't stand her, but I couldn't stand [Paul Newman] either; I mean, they were boring!   In fact, I told Paul a joke one night – we were shooting a film at night – and about four or five hours later, he came back and told me the same joke."

I attempted to clarify – was she saying that blue-eyed hunk Paul Newman was boring, too?

 "Yes!" she said, emphatically.  "Well I mean, to me he was.  Maybe I missed something that others saw, but I found him very boring."

Newman was apparently oblivious to this fact, because according to her, the handsome (married) actor came on to her at a Malibu beach house on one balmy evening in the 70's.

"Mutual friends of ours had rented a beach house for the summer," she said.  "And I went over there one night, and he had been drinking beer, as usual, and he got me alone. I don’t remember what he said exactly, it was a long time ago.  But I said 'No,' and I remember him saying something like, 'Oh, you ladies seem to always know what you're doing,' or something like that, which made me think it certainly wasn't the first time he'd come onto someone. You have to be brilliantly funny and actually have a personality for me to be attracted.  Paul was neither."

That memory led her to offer up another Hollywood actor she doesn't like.  "I just can't stand Russell Crowe," she said. "I don't know, he just seems so dumb! I don't know him and I don’t need to know him. He's an asshole fuckface!  I just don't like him.  He looks like the Pillsbury Doughboy."

If Leachman seemed critical of others, she was equally judgmental when it came to her own work. Admitting that she can usually only stand to watch about a half-hour of one of her performances before she either turns it off or changes the channel, there is one that she is so proud of  – a TV movie called "The Woman Who Willed a Miracle" – that she can in fact make it through the entire film. 

 But what about Nurse Diesel and Frau Blucher? As a fan, one wonders what Leachman's children and grandchildren think of those roles.  You imagine a rite of passage moment, where each of the grandkids sees Grandma's performances in those roles and turn to her proudly, saying, "Oh my god, Gram! You are so funny!"  But according to her, that is yet to happen.  

That’s when George Jr. chimed in.  "I've seen those performances many, many times, and I absolutely love it," he said.  "But I don't think there's ever been an ‘A-ha’ moment within the family.  Well wait, when we saw that scene from ‘Beerfest,’ we were all like, 'Wow!'  But we're definitely all aware of her amazing performances."

Leachman talked about the rather risque scene in 'Beerfest.' where her character dirties up a sausage.   "There's only one way to warm up a cold sausage," she laughed.  "I asked the director how I was supposed to do this and he said, 'Just pretend it's human!’"

Since this was the night before the recent Prop 8 decision, I asked Leachman about it failing in the November election and what her reaction was.

"I was shocked, shocked!” she said.  “It just seems so old- fashioned.  Who are they kidding?  We really have to deal with this now?  Is that a stupid thing or what?  That anyone would be against same-sex marriage, how dare they?  I mean, how dare they?"

What about her?  Had she ever been attracted to women in her life?

"No," she said.  “But I love women.  I really do.  And I feel deeply, deeply connected to them.  And to be with a beautiful woman is a wonderful thing, I just don't feel attracted to them.  The best I can say is that I think that Ellen really likes me. [winks]  I'm just kidding!  [Laughs]”

"Well wait,” she said.   "I think I could imagine having sex with a woman.  I mean, sex is sex.  And if you're touched in the right places and they know what to do, then it could be exciting.  I don't think I'd be attracted to a woman, but I could certainly have sex with a woman.  But I've never been attracted to a woman. I was so hungry for men to put their arms around me.  That was just it for me." 

I changed the conversation to Bea Arthur’s recent passing and its being reported all over the place that she never liked Betty White, which is really surprising.  I asked Leachman if there are any co-stars that she didn’t like.  Not missing a beat, George Jr. chimed in.

"You and Betty are doing an interview together on Monday, so choose your words carefully!" [Laughter].

"I'm friends with Betty,” she responded.  “Well, I feel like I'm responsible for her being on ‘The Mary Tyler Moore Show.’  Apparently, I'm not, but I thought I was.   After the first season of ‘Mary’ was a huge hit – and I was in ‘The Last Picture Show,’ and ‘Young Frankenstein,’  we asked if I could only be in the episodes where I was heavy in the show.  You know, so I could be free the rest of the time to do other work.  I suggested to them that they use Betty in the episodes when I wasn’t on, so I could go on shooting other things. And they did, so I thought I had a lot to do with that.  But I think she and Mary were friends anyway, which is possible."

Leachman then shared a story about losing an Emmy to Cicely Tyson, who won for her role in “The Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman.”

"I was nominated for an Emmy and I felt very strongly about the performance,” she said.  “But I didn’t attend the Emmy's.  I went grocery shopping. I came in with two bags of groceries and turned on the TV.  They were showing the scene where Cicely Tyson was sipping from the water fountain and I said, ‘Well, I'm not going to win an Emmy tonight!’"

During an interview in the 1970's, Leachman made comments about fat people that ruffled some feathers.  Members of the National Association to Aid Fat Americans demanded an apology from the actress.  Now it’s 2009, and I wanted to know, has society become so politically correct that it’s just not fun anymore?

"No, I think it makes people a little more polite and kinder,” she said.  “But it’s also too bad that you lose a lot of color and fun which is also missing from our culture.   I mean, there was this wonderful little song from before that you just can't sing anymore.  I don't remember the words or the melody, but [tries to remember it] I can get the words in my head for a second, but I just can't remember it."

Her recent run on "Dancing With the Stars" garnered a ton of publicity for Leachman, and in some ways, she's more famous now from that show than she ever was before.  If you search for her name on YouTube, the first several results pages are clips of her on the show.  That said, has her time on the popular dance competition overshadowed her previous work?

George Jr. answered.  “I think it brings it all together.  People are like, ‘Wow, I saw her on ‘Dancing with the Stars,’ but I had no idea she was in 'Young Frankenstein,' or 'High Anxiety.'  She was just the Grand Marshall at the Rose Parade, which was massive, and everyone was lined up saying, ‘Oh we loved you on ‘Dancing with the Stars.’  But then they say ‘Malcolm’ or ‘Facts of Life,’ so I think it’s just brought more awareness across the board.” 

I then asked if she'd be interested in playing “Who would you rather sleep with?,” and she asked how.  I began to explain the game, and she interrupted: "I can tell you right now that it wouldn't be with Meryl Streep.  I love her, but I would never sleep with a smoker!"

"But you have to let me pair people up together before you choose," I said, laughing.  "So who would it be?  Mary Tyler Moore or Carol Burnett?"

[Laughs]."I don't even know Mary!” she said.  “Oh God…[Thinks].  I don't  know.  I don't think I could choose. I couldn’t choose! Oh, I just don't think I could do it!” 

“Go for Mary!” George suggested.

[Thinks] "Ok,” she said.  “Maybe Mary in the old days, but not now.  We're both up there.” [Editor's note:  If you're interested in more of Leachman's answers to the "Who would you rather sleep with?" game, you can read the full transcript here.]

While on the subject of Mary Tyler Moore, I told Leachman about a recent poll we did with readers that asked "If you could have dinner with either Mary Tyler Moore, Valerie Harper or Cloris Leachman, who would you choose?"   I was curious how Leachman would respond, given the same choice.  She gives it thought before answering.

“I love Valerie so much – and she loves me and she supports me so much,” she said.  “I love her energy and enthusiasm and everything about her.  So I could see myself having dinner with her."

"I would be interested in having dinner with Mary too, because I don’t know her that well,” she said, surprisingly.  “I've never been alone at a dinner with her, where I could really talk with her, so that would be interesting to me."

Wait, she'd never had dinner alone with Mary?  I explained that most people were going to be surprised by that.  Leachman agreed, and she and George said they realize how facts like that can be disappointing to fans.  "I think there's an assumption with a lot of people that me, Mary, Valerie, Bob Newhart and Carol Burnett all get together every night," said Leachman.  "But I really don't have any celebrity friends."

I ask if she wants to know the results of the poll. 

"Only if you want to share that," she said.

I told her that she was the winner -- our readers had chosen Leachman over the other two, "Is there a reason you can think of as to why gays and lesbians chose you over Mary or Valerie?" I asked.

[Thinks].  “I don't know, but maybe I'm more honest, I guess?” she said.   “I think I'm the most honest.  Valerie's wonderful and smart and interesting, and she's up on things, but maybe on things that aren't interesting to average people. And Mary would talk about her two favorite things, which are diabetes and animals, but… she's interesting, too.  But see, Mary can be outgoing sometimes, and it’s refreshing, but she also protects herself so much. [But] I'd be the most honest.” 

[Editor's note:  Leachman's book is available now.  You can also check out her new clothing line at Clorisline.com or by clicking here.]

Images courtesy Getty, ABC

Watch classic Cloris clips below!

Cloris as Phyllis Lindstrom

Frau Blucher makes her entrance in ‘Young Frankenstein’

As Frau Blucher: "Stay close to the candles. The staircase... can be treacherous...”

“Good night, Frau Blucher”

Nurse Diesel in bondage from “High Anxiety”

Nurse Diesel: “We’re dealing with sick people here!”

Comments

[daniella desantis]

I'm not surprised at all that gays voted her as the one they'd like to have dinner with. She's always had an honesty that I've never seen with Mary Tyler Moore.

Rock on, Cloris. You still look hot!

[FanOfHoward]

Watching those clips made me realize I need to Netflix "High Anxiety." I forgot how funny she was as Nurse Diesel.

I find it odd that her grandkids don't flip out over some of her iconic roles.

Cloris has always been so full of life and energy. It's great to see she still has that at her age. Speaking of which, I was shocked to learn she was 83. I thought she was in her 70's. She looks amazing.

[SALLYSILVER]

I read her book and agree that you have to read certain parts twice. She really does spill the beans on a lot of people. It was so refreshing -- nobody ever does that.

The Paul Newman tidbit from this interview is not in the book. In fact, she raves about Paul in the book, so not sure why she didn't include how she really felt about him in the book?

Cloris, you are so much more beautiful than Mary.

[christineconner]

What's so great about Cloris Leachman is that she was never, ever afraid to play ugly. Other actresses of her generation (including MTM) would never have dreamed of allowing themselves to look as "ugly" as Cloris did.

In fact, she was so willing to "ugly it up" for certain roles, one could almost forget how much of a knockout she was in real life.

Her body of work is astounding, and she deserves a Lifetime Achievement Award for sure.

I enjoyed this and hope she continues to keep her enhthusiasm. There are some people you just never want to get old.

[James]

Yes, yes of course.

[cl]

I love Cloris, what a true American treasure!!!

[MidnightVoice]

In addition to her comedic genius, she was also outstanding at a dramatic actress. Don't forget "The Last Picture Show" from Peter Bogdanovich in which she played a plain Jane older woman to Joseph Bottoms' young innocent. If you've not seen this performance, it's a "must rent"!

[A. Young]

I love this woman...

That'd be awesome to have the privilege of working with her.

[Tony]

I'll admit, I didn't know who she was other than she was on Dancing with the Stars until someone told me she was in Young Frankenstein. I LOVED her in that. I put a bunch of her other movies on Netflix.

Thanks!

[Janet]

What a dreadful, tacky old bat. Talking about Paul Newman the way she does when the man isn't around any more to give her the lie.
And how arrogant and self serving she is.
She makes comments about Russell Crowe....yet admits she 'doesn't know him'. Yet she knows enough, apparently, to make offensive comments about his character and intelligence.
She's simply another bitter old publicity whore like Joan Rivers.

[Kevin]

I think the "tacky old bat" is Janet who just commented.

I think the interview was great and so what if you don't like what she has to say. No one is forcing you to read it. I don't think I've seen an interview with her before and I'm glad she's finally getting the attention she deserves.

I think she's a comic genius. I mean look at what she did through her whole career. She went toe-to-toe with Mel Brooks, Gene Wilder and Harvey Korman and in many cases stole the scene out from under them.

I love ya you "tacky old bat"!

[Cloris Lover]

WAY TO GO YOU HOT LITTLE MAMA!

YOU ARE A RIOT ON FILM AND TV. I THINK YOUR BEST ROLE EVER IS FRAU BLUCHER IN YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN. "STAY CLOSE TO THE CANDLES, THE STAIRS CAN BE VERY TREACHEROUS"

[Daniel Gariépy, Toronto]

I've always liked Cloris Leachman and considered her a fantastic comedienne and dramatic actress....which is a very rare combination indeed.

She sure has lost any discretion she might have had though. That sometimes happens with age. It's great that she's upfront, but sometimes it's a good idea to use a bit of discretion. Her remarks about that "asshole fuckface" Russell Crowe (whom she admits she has never met) seemed pretty off the wall.

Daniel Gariépy
Toronto

[Carol in Queens]

My pet name for my wife is "Phyllis". LOL, this is funny that PlanetOut would run a story on Cloris.

I was 12 when the Mary Tyler Moore show started and I'll admit I had a huge crush on Phyllis. I actually started to question my sexuality when I realized I was attracted to her.

About 1 year after the show went off the air I met a girl just like Phyllis Lindstrom (Cloris Leachman) and we've been together ever since. I told her about my crush on Phyllis and she thought it was cute. I've been calling her that ever since then and we just celebrated our 30th anniversary last month and even got married in CA last summer.

Two big old dykes in Queens, NY love you Cloris!!!!

[Mike Ryan]

Having read Ms. Leachman's biography last weekend -- I can say one is left with the troubling feeling that she spent a life living it for herself. Her detached remarks about her son who died after a long addiction to many drugs -- seems less like those of a loving mother than that of a disinterested crime reporter. It seems her career came before the health of her son. Yes, much of the book is entertaining...if not self-centered...but it's also troubling and too much is revealed about the private moments of others.

[JudgeJeep]

Gotta love her comments on Russell Crowe! She's just saying what she thinks!!! Who does that anymore??? Doesn't MATTER who cares.... What a woman!!! GO GIRL~~~

[Matt]

Wish you'd included a clip from "The Last Picture Show", one of the greatest dramatic portrayals ever recorded on film. She's garnered so much fame as a comedic actress that people forget (if they ever knew in the first place) her talents in other genres.

BTW, my father used to refer to her as "Clorox Bleachman". Somehow, after reading your interview, I have a feeling she would enjoy that kind of ribbing.

[The Truth]

I've lost respect for her now. She thinks it was Paul Newman's job to keep her entertained? She bad-mouths Russell Crowe and doesn't even know him?

She's had her moments but she's definitely no Paul Newman or Russell Crowe. Until she's walked a mile in their shoes as a lead and had to have been "on" all the time at their level, she doesn't get to say how boring they are. I mean for crying out loud, Paul Newman was probably trying to decompress and get away from the crowd, yet this selfish woman expects him to keep her entertained? If she wants to be entertained by Paul Newman, she should go see one of his movies.

I mean, really! Paul Newman was one of our biggest supporters in the gay community and she's trying to talk him down, then she wants us to go out and buy her book?

I never expected to see her being a Bitter Betty but here she is being a Bitter Betty. All due respect to her Oscar and Emmys but I don't think I'd be any more entertained by her book than she was by Paul Newman. More's the pity because Paul Newman has done so much for humanity in general and gay rights in particular. What has Ms. Leachman done for anyone? And here she is tut-tutting about "how dare they" on the issue of gay marriage? That takes a lot of nerve. Is she really that cheeky or has the old bat just lost it?

[MidnightVoice]

Here's the last scene from "The Last Picture Show", with Cloris Leachman and Timothy Bottoms (wrong Bottoms noted above LOL -- wishful thinking perhaps?) Watch her facial expressions in this scene. She says more with her face than most actresses say with pages of dialogue. Truly a magnificent actress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__T3WJVmBY8

[Ross]

She was gorgeous in one of the most iconic gay roles ever...Hippolyta, the Amazon Queen who sends her only daughter to America as Wonder Woman. Carolyn Jones took over the role in later episodes, but it was Ms. Leachman in the pilot. She was passed over for the Broadway version of Young Frankenstein ( a mistake, but perhaps better for her in the long run), but I "wonder" if there will be a place for her when Diana Prince eventually moves to the silver screen?

[K]

Jeez, all these years everyone thought Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward had a perfect marriage. Now all these stories coming out of the woodwork.
People making fun of Cloris Leachman for being old: it's not bad to be old! It just happens. I loved her in the Mary Tyler Moore show and the Mel Brooks movies. Nurse Diesel was really funny. Thank you for your work through the years Ms. Leachman.

[livinginla]

What a great interview! It's wonderful to see she is still as funny as she ever was. You almost forget how much of a knock out she was because she was always willing to take so many ugly roles.

I love her -- god bless cloris!

[MichaelC]

I usually hate interviews because either the don't cover the questions I'm interested in or the person being intereviewed either isn't honestly or has a movie, book or show they'd rather push then actually answer questions. This interview however was perfect - great questions and honest answers. I love Cloris and have already read her book. Although she was passed over for the Broadway musical "Young Frankenstein" it was because Mel Brooks thought she was too old for 8 performances a week - he has however recanted after seeing her on "Dancing with the Stars" and now says he made a mistake.

[Alex]

I have always loved Cloris! My faves? In the movie the North Avenue Irregulars, there's a car chase scene and the crook caused her to hit her hand on the steering wheel and she broke her nails...hilarious scene!

And of course in High Anxiety where Harvy Korman is late for dinner by a few seconds and she takes his dessert away and says, "No fruit cup" in that voice. Classic!

She is a national treasure.

[Brenda Irving]

Great interview. I lapped it up like hot chocolate, laughing all the way.

I have always been a huge fan of Cloris Leachman and she can say anything she pleases. I would love to see a lot more 83 year old women speak their minds. We would all learn a few things.

[DIVA]

In the early 70's book about fat bias called "Shadow On A Tightrope", Leachman was quoted at the very beginning as saying:
"They should use steam shovels to sweep all fat people off the streets so I won't have to look at them".

The remark hurt and angered me. I'm a person, not garbage.